PIT TOUCH and FLAG FOOTBALL in WINNIPEG MANITOBA - FOOTBALL!

3779 Posts

Congratulations to each of the remaining finalists in our record breaking 2013 outdoor season. Here is a rundown of the championship finals that have yet to be played:

Monday September 30th:
Division 11: North End Hawkeyes (2) vs TD Twisters (6)
Division 2: Knights (3) vs No D (4)

Friday October 4th:
Flag 1st Division: Doggs (1) vs Royal Knights (5)
Flag 2nd Division: Vipers (1) vs Crimson Tide (3)
Shiva Bowl: Raging Bulls vs Nuts & Cider

Saturday October 5th:
Division 9: Quick Slants (1) vs Fat as F*ck (4)
Division 8: Clip Clops (1) vs MegaPowers (2)
Division 7: Aints (2) vs The Tribe (3)
Division 6: Barracudas (3) vs Aphids (7)
Division 10: Go Deep (4) vs Bammm!!! Peanut Butter & Jam (7)
Division 3: Woodies (1) vs Rebels (2)
Division 4: Ballsagna (1) vs Snappers (3)
Division 5: U Can't Touch This (3) vs Shiva Blast (8)

All games will take place on the artificial turf of East Side Eagles Field. Game times can be viewed here: http://www.pitfootball.com/seasons/1088-summer-outdoor-2013/games/playoffs

The large number of teams seeded 5th or lower in the finals attest to the parity that exists within Divisions. There should be some great finals this week with the first two going tonight starting at 6:00pm!

The PIT Crew

948 Posts

There were perfect football conditions for Championship games this evening under the lights with mild temperatures and virtually no wind to deal with for the PIT's quarterbacks. Congrats to the 6th seed, the TD Twisters that took the Division 11 title, and the 4th seed, No D that captured the Division 2 title tonight at the East side Eagles field.

3779 Posts

Parity reigns Monday as the 4th and 6th seeds in divisions 2 and 11 respectively take home the titles! Division 2 could have been the most competitive division in touch football history as just two points separated the top five teams in the division.

The PIT Crew

5 Posts

Parity reigns... If by "parity" you mean having players from the Winnipeg Rifles play just enough games in Div 11 to qualify for playoffs then help their buddies in Div 11 win the championship... Debauchery indeed...

3779 Posts

TD Twisters played a great game and had a smart game plan to neutralize your QB. And if I were your team I would give them nothing but credit in their victory. Through our dealings with the TD Twisters over the years they have demonstrated themselves to be a classy team.

Being as gracious in defeat as in victory is a virtue.

The PIT Crew

134 Posts

From the score, it looks like it was a good match up and either team could have won it.

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Jon we are gracious in defeat, so no worries there. It's just that when "The PIT Crew" continually hammers the idea of wanting "parity" and you've got guys from the Rifles playing just enough games to qualify for the playoffs in Div 11, something doesn't seem right. Especially when this guy is able to lead his team in points and ints while only playing a third of their games.

Hoan it was a really good game actually. Even though they had a bring in a ringer to beat us, the game could have gone either way. Costly mistakes and untimely/timely plays were the difference.

Congrats again on the win Cam. I'm sure your Rifles teammates would be proud of the way you played.

254 Posts

Okay, that really sounded like a backhanded compliment to the Twisters. You cant say you are being gracious in defeat, and then complain that they brought in a ringer to help them win. If he played enough games to qualify for the playoffs, then its all fair. You cant call him a ringer, and besides, he is only ONE guy, he cant play all 7 positions on the field. I understand this first hand because we lost to the Twisters as well, but im not going to go as far to say that he was the single reason as to why they won. He is a good player and made some sick catches against us, be we also had our chances to score and failed to do so. I give the Twisters nothing but credit and they deserved to win just as much as any other team does. I find it quite ironic that someone from the Hawkeyes, of all teams, is complaining that the twisters "brought in a ringer", when your QUARTERBACK scores 186 points(In Division 11 btw) by running knowing full well he is one of the fastest guys in the whole league and clearly takes advantage of that, because his actual throwing abilities are...sub-par at best. The Twisters still managed to win games without Cam Penner, where as I would bet my life on it the Hawkeyes sure as hell aren't blowing teams out and winning 14 games a season if they didn't have Daniel as the quarterback. You would be just a mediocre team at best, You finally played a team that you couldn't just run all over, and had players that were just as good, and they beat you, end of story, not because they brought in ringer, but they were just better. I found there to be great parity in the division, well, other than Nuts & Cider. The top team in the division got bounced from the playoffs in the first round by one of the bottom teams, did Goodfellas have ringers on their team too??? Just take your defeat and don't complain about it afterwards. And CONGRATS to the TWISTERS, and not just Cam Penner, the whole team, for finally putting the Hawkeyes in their place!

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Well said Travers! Well said!

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Thank you Neal! Its just so god damn ridiculous and hypercritical to bitch and complain about losing to a team because they had a "ringer", but at the same time they won all their games due to having a "ringer" themselves. Go figure..

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I see both sides of the argument developing as valid. In this case I would agree with Travers that he is one guy, and he made sick catches (now I feel better knowing that I was outplayed by a Rifle) and we could have beaten them had we played better and finished our chances. We didn't bring our A game.

Though the problem of high caliber players slumming down in low divs is still a problem (and its ironic that a team that used a high caliber player to rock the division is the one that complained) There has to be a way to make this a less common occurrence cause I know I'm not the only person that doesn't like having to play against guys that totally outclass us, and as Hawkeyes points out, it only takes one guy to de-balance the game.

It seems that outside Chupas and maybe one/two other teams, everyone in lower divisions just stacks up with high div players, so what's the point of lower divs? I know a lot of people will think this is bitching and moaning (kinda is) but games are far more fun when they are competitive, not one sided.

Congrats to all Twisters and Hawkeyes, you played very well.

254 Posts

Ummmm... Im going to have to disagree with some things there Matt. First, I don't think the higher guys coming down to lower divisions was all that bad, at least not in div 11 I don't think. Like I mentioned earlier, unless its a Quarterback, I don't think one guy should make that much of a difference. Second, If it was any OTHER team besides the hawkeyes that was complaining, they might have an argument, But they have Daniel as their QB which pretty much gave them the advantage against every other team in the division, because nobody could catch him, hence his godly 186 points as a Quarterback. Third, our own best chupacabra player (Kyle Hosein)played in div 2/3,4,5, and 6, for most of the year, so we had our own stud on the team, which is why I don't complain when teams have ONE or two guys in higher divs on their team. Also, their are so many players and so many teams in this league, it would be near impossible to police who is on what team, and how good they are etc, I checked Cam Penner's stats, and the guy has barely played in the league...how is the league suppose to know he plays football for the rifles? They cant be running backround checks on every player to see where he has played football in the past.

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Travers it sounds like you're just hating on the Hawkeyes. On one hand you're saying that our QB's arm is sub-par and without him the rest of our team is mediocre, but at the same time it's not fair he's our qb. But if his arm is really that mediocre, just send 2 rushers and since he can't throw, should be 2 and out every time. I don't know if you should be talking about how mediocre our team is considering how badly we beat you guys. But Travers lets put our personal feelings aside and look at things subjectively. Here's our record from the last 4 years and our roster core has stayed the same as you can see on the website.

2010 8-10 lost 1st round
2011 3-15 lost in the finals
2012 10-8 lost 1st round
2013 14-4 lost in the finals

All 4 year Danny was our qb and all 4 years this was in the lowest division. Over the last 4 seasons in the lowest division with Danny as our QB our record is 35-37. Prior to this season our record was 21-33. Before we registered for this season we looked at how we did again the other teams in our division in 2012. Young and the Rest of Us who beat us 31-1 and 44-0 and they were in division 10 this season. We saw them as a superior team so we wanted to be in a competitive division so asked to be 1 division lower than them. Chupacabras has an identical 10-8 record in 2012. The league wants parity man and we want to be in a competitive division. From what I just showed you, would it not make sense for us to be playing in the same division as the Chupacabras? We didn't stack up on higher division players like you're making it seem. The highest division any of our players played in was division 5 a couple years ago when Paul Galante was rushing for Deep Pockets. But when Paul was added to our team, The PIT Crew made it very clear to us that Paul Galante was not allowed to rush the qb because The PIT Crew felt that he was too good to play rusher in Div 11 this season. We were told that if Paul recorded a sack, we would automatically default the game. So if Paul isn't allowed to rush, then why is a dude from the Rifles allowed to do whatever he wants?

As for comparing Danny to Cam, Danny has never worn a pair of shoulder pads. Never played a game of football outside touch football. As Travers can attest, his arm is sub-par and before this season our record was 21-33. And also, Danny has been our QB for most of those games and this season he played in every game as he has for most of our last 4 seasons. As for Cam, he played in 7 of his team's 18 games and he plays at a much higher level.

www.winnipegsun.com/2011/10/29/penner-has-nose-for-football‎

You're right Travers that he played his minimum required games, but C'mon man! You're telling me you don't see what happened here??

Kyle was great to play against because he was a strong player and every team should have at least a couple of good reliable guys. Just like a lot of other higher div players playing in div 11 this year. But Cam was a game changer, respect to the guy, but he shouldn't be playing in Div 11.

In the end, yes we could have played better, we made more mistakes than our competition, and yeah we got beat straight up. But when the league's talking about parity, I don't see what happened here as promoting parity.

And lastly, Matt, thank you very much for your comments man. I'm with you when you say you want to play competitive games and as I showed you my logic above, your intention this season registering in the same div as you guys was to try to be in a competitive division.

5 Posts

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the league should be doing background checks or anything like that. I think the onus should be on the players so govern themselves accordingly. Although it would definitely help if The PIT Crew would set guidelines so that all teams/players are held to the same set of rules regarding divisions and all that. I'm sure some guys agree with me and I'm sure some guys disagree and we're all entitled to our opinions so I don't want this to turn into a big drama in the forum. I was just annoyed with the way things went down and felt the need to say something. I guess I'm like Matt where I don't like to be outclassed like that on the field. I don't see myself as an elite player and with our roster we tried to put ourselves in the most appropriate division possible. Anyway, I've said my piece and I'm over it. Congrats to all the Twisters on the win.

134 Posts

This is what I've learned from my experience so far:

Anything 5 and above is super competitive - join at your own risk and come if you like getting slaughtered or can bring your A game
6-7 is intermediate - come if you like a good beating once in a while or can bring the beat down
8 bridges on intermediate/casual - come if you like to go out only with your tail behind your legs and can get revenge
9-10 is a mix bag and is for casual/competitive - fisty cuffs here, no guns, no knives, just fisty cuffs
11 - Debauchery Division!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! An orgy of football fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

254 Posts

First off, you didn't lose in the first round of the playoffs last year, because you played against us and won. And im standing by what I said, if Daniel wasn't your QB, you WOULD be mediocre. It doesn't matter if he has never put on shoulder pads, you don't need shoulder pads to play touch football. I don't think its a coincidence that he has lead your team in points every single year you have played. You find me any other team where the Quarterback leads the team in points every year. If you out run everyone you play against, it doesn't matter if you can throw or not. Did he not win the fastest player at the all-star competition along with longest FG? But because he hasn't put pads on, that somehow means he shouldn't be good at football? I also never said anything about your team stacking up on high caliber players, or that you shouldn't be in division 11. The point I was trying to make is that you basically said the only reason that the twisters beat you is because of Cam Penner, and you called him a ringer, yet your own team has a player that has basically been unstoppable, but that's okay?, I don't care how little football experience he has, the guy can run, and when your playing in a bottom division where is pretty clear the talent level isn't as high caliber, its pretty easy to do. And I called your QB subpar as a thrower his total number of TD passes over the years isn't exactly stellar ,except for this season where it ballooned to 45,well its easy to throw TDs when playing against some of the worst teams in the league. Yet, his point totals always seem to be ridiculously high for a guy who's main job is to throw the football. He averages 118 points a year over the past 4 years, yet only averages 23 Tds passes over that same span...hmmm. In the end, as I said earlier, my point is, don't get mad cause the Twisters had a good player and then after they beat you, complain that there is no parity, when you guys have a player that also makes you much much better than everyone else.

36 Posts

I call BS on TD Twisters, Hawkeyes, AND Chupacabras! Div 11 championship should be awarded to Manchild! It's only fair. You all had one or more high div players. Our MVP was our 16 year old snapper........'s 40 year old mom! She's a nice lady. She motivated Manchild. Right, Devano?

Seriously as someone who played in the same div as all these players we found Danny to be more of a threat (no offense to cam penner since he is a very good player) and required more game planning against. TD twisters have a lot of fast, talented, and athletic players. They deserved to win the debauchery division. Good on you guys for coming up with a game plan to shut down Daniel. Congrats on the championship, boys. Not hating on the Hawkeyes. You guys were pretty dominant for a good stretch there. I just don't agree with your calling out PIT or TD Twisters. Daniel without his tackle football experience is just as talented as Cam Penner.

Anyways, great season! Enjoyed playing against all of you and the other debauchery div teams. Except Paul Galante. He can suck it.

948 Posts

For the record, I wanted to bring attention to the fact that Daniel has been a very easy person to deal with within the league, nothing but class and respectful interactions with him, and would like to congratulate him for the very unique accomplishments he obtained within the PIT this year. Either team could have easily won this game, and this is what the league strives for...

Scott

254 Posts

I have no problem with him, or anyone else in the league for that matter. I do have a problem with people making excuses and calling out the league for saying they aren't doing their best to try and make all the divisions as equal as they can, and making sure that there IS parity amongst the teams.

36 Posts

I have a problem now. Not with Daniel... With this whole Paul Galante not being able to rush. He rushed against us in our 2nd game and actually got credit for a sack. He finished with 4 sacks on the season. Hmmmmmmmmm? Fishy. Shady!!! Explanation please.

6 Posts

Football drama. Love it.

Parity.

It is simple. We group the divisions. We call divisions 1-4 Elite, 5-8 Professional, 9-12 Amateur, etc... We separate Indoor and Outdoor. After each "season" the top ten guys from each position get ranked. Ranking last for 1 full year. That means the top ten QB's out of all the QB's in divisions 1-4 all get ranked as "Elite". We can add it to the website. Bragging rights galore. If a player is ranked at a position then he or she cannot play that position at a lower ranking.

Example: A div 2 QB gets ranked as elite in Fall indoor. For winter league, spring league and the following fall league, that person cannot QB lower then div 4. Remember: Div 1-4 is Elite. Div 5-8 is Pro. Or whatever. On the ref's roster sheet these ranking are printed out so they can ask about players playing below their ranking. Give it one full year and Pit Football will become much more balanced.

I am not naming names or insulting anybody. However, we have all played against players and sometimes entire teams that should not have been allowed to play as low as they were. Jon and Scott are only two people. They can't police / check everyone.

And I say again, tying it to the websites / player profiles gives major bragging rights.

Anybody else like this approach?

36 Posts

You're an elite jackass. I feel sorry for the team you QB!

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I regret saying anything now. I didn't know Kyle played higher divs. I didn't mean to start all this. Sorry all!

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Why don't we all get assigned player ratings based on performance, age and prior experience, and then we can look at average player ratings to rank teams? This allows you to have certain superstar players on your low-div team, so long as you've got them surrounded by scrubs like me.

Nobody likes sandbagging except the teams that do it, and sometimes you know you're outclassed early in the season so you try to bring in help, which I think is legit, but outsiders may call it "bringing in a ringer." If you get player ratings done right, all of this could be better managed. At the same time, it's not entirely fair to limit great players' ability to play on multiple teams, or for an elite rusher to try bottom-div QBing, for example.

Having said all that, there's no way you're gonna please everybody. It's just a new thing to bitch about that would require hours of effort.

Keep the grumbling to yourself and congrats to all the winners!

Jeff

116 Posts

I don't consider a "ringer" to be someone from a higher div (or in this case the Rifles) who plays the sufficient number of games to make them playoff-eligible. I consider a ringer someone who is far more skilled than the rest of the div who plays one or two "must win" games for whatever reason - someone who has no commitment to the team. So, if I go and ask Jon Franklin to play for my team, and he plays the 9 games he's supposed to, why is that out of line? He's committed to the team enough to play 9 games.

But, if I need to win the next game because it can put my team into the playoffs (indoor, I suppose), and I go get Franklin to throw, just so I can win? - that's a ringer.

I also try very hard to not assume I know everything about the other team (ie: intentions and knowledge). See: our best player was injured with 6 games remaining. I saw a dude playing a lower div that I was impressed with, and asked him to play. He was added to the roster, and contributed in a huge way. It was only AFTER I'd asked him and saw him on our roster that I realised he played in div 2. But, it would be easy for someone to assume I knew all that...

116 Posts

i'll make my contribution to this - i don't think higher level players should necessarily be banned from the lower divisions......reason being, we all grew up with friends who have various skill levels. If there is one elite player (div 1-4) playing with a bunch of Amateur (Div 9-12) players then they probably should be in a lower division... unless this is an elite QB.... which is probably the most important position when it comes to being fair or not fair. I think one higher level WR can be negated by a lower lever QB throwing..... it doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. I know some higher level players are playing with their wives or family too...... hard to say this shouldn't be allowed in a lower division (although in most cases the wives are pretty stellar too :))

I will also add that some of these young teams should start challenging themselves a bit more and stop sandbagging mid to lower divisions for championships. If you put in a new team, how about going a division higher instead of a division or two lower than you think you should be. That has always been the way i think anyways. I don't think i am the best player on the field by any stretch of the imagination, but i definitely like beating the best players. Why have a div 6 championship when you can have a div 1 championship in a few years. I guess my issue is only that there are teams that play hard competitive ball and like to torch teams, but who hate moving up divisions.... that bothers me. Nothing wrong with losing a few games in a higher division to get better once and a while.

The one other thing i will say is i know other teams had issues with some of the players playing div 1 this year for our walking dead team.... i heard people saying they were sandbagging in their lower divisions and div 1 players shouldn't be able to do that....... the funny thing is we just got guys who wanted to come play hard competitive ball who had never played in the top half of divisions. We got our asses kicked early, but we got better in a hurry too. It's amazing what the challenge did for our team this year, and it was an incredibly fun year despite having a large number of new bodies. I think alot of those players you will find in higher and higher divisions in the upcoming seasons.

Also my teams might not appreciate it, but i have gone to Jon when i have seen my team a division or two lower than i think they should be, and i tell him...."bump us up" in fact this season we put a new team into division 4, with Josh at QB and he has not thrown in the pit before. Initially i think we asked for 5, but i know Josh can throw and i knew we had the weapons to compete higher, so i would never hesitate to have my teams move higher. So all i guess i am saying, is it is time for these teams with skill and who want to play competitive to move up. Who cares if you don't go undefeated, we all make the playoffs anyways.

Okumura i expect your fall team in 3 or 4.... i need to torch you.

That's all :)

254 Posts

In otherwords, all the cool people agree with Me!

3779 Posts

Good points Neil. People don't remember back in the day when there were only 20 teams in Manitoba across 3-4 divs and you played almost all teams during the season. So if you were div 2 caliber at the time (equivalent to div 6 or 7 today) you would be playing the elite division teams. As a div 2 team at the time we lost and lost BIG to a lot of teams, but that just motivated us to get better to knock off the top dogs. No complaining we just went in and took our beatings till we learned how the game is played and we started knocking off the top teams and eventually won a National Championship. When you lose, ask yourself why and fix the problem for next game. You would be surprised when you take that mentality who much better your team gets in a short period of time. If you aren't a competitive team then just have fun and enjoy playing some ball with your friends and having a beer afterward.

We NEVER complained about crossovers and NEVER played below our skill level. Rather lose against the best than sandbag and win. This league is by far the most competitive league with the best parity across divisions in Canada. I have played in almost all the Provinces over the years and people don't know how well they have got it! It amazes me how few teams want to challenge themselves and prefer to play as low as they possibly can (and kudos to those few crazy new teams who shoot for Div 1 right away and we have to talk them down about 10 divisions!). Div 2/3 this year opened some eyes to players who thought they couldn't compete and then found themselves running neck and neck with everyone else. Sometimes the league needs to give teams a "push" in the right direction.

Next year we shuffle the deck again, best teams in divisions move up, worst teams move down and the parity gets better and better year over year. I am amazed at the parity this year considering we grew by nearly 30 teams and had to figure out the best division for a large number of teams we hadn't seen play before. The league will get better each and every year. Its our mandate and we take it seriously. If the worst thing that happens is a 15-8 final then we are doing our job correctly.

And yes, Walking Dead rocks (even better considering a significant portion of our team isn't of legal drinking age in the U.S. yet!).

The PIT Crew
Giving players the best game day experience in recreational sports since 2008.

16 Posts

Man... you are old!

1 Post

This guy's post was removed since he made up an alias to take shots at people while not standing behind the comments. I know it makes for better reading if the comment remained, but there has to be some honour in at least leaving a name...

The PIT Crew

36 Posts

Damn! Who was that?

51 Posts

Wow. I didn't realize football players kept slam-books. My eight-year-old daughter isn't this catty.

Just play football, guys. If it gets any more heated we're gonna need a dance-off.

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Whoa, tell us how you really feel marky mark! lol. After doing talking to some other people around the league, they also told me that the hawkeyes planned to run up the score on teams because "certain guys" were mad that they were placed in the bottom division again. Which pretty much contridicts what Charlie79 said about asking to be placed in the bottom division. You can't say you wanted to be placed there, and then get mad and run up the score when it happens

151 Posts

I can remember taking those beatings too Jon. Do you remember them Kanwal? Back when we were one of the original 6 teams in the UTFL (Absolutely Fabulous-Fighting Fire Hydrants). Man we got smashed on the regular (Thanks Marlins and Redskins). Difference is we never learned a thing in all the years we played and only got marginally better winning a single championship. Winning was always secondary to having fun and hanging with the guys.

Besides Jon and Scott I doubt any of you guys make money off touch football. So lets not lose focus of why we play.

Darren

254 Posts

I make side bets.

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Darren You are welcome for those memory's, but do not sell your team short you guys were a force back in the day, but if i remember correctly your defense was stellar back then with Darrel at safety. Stay young,
keep playing my friend.

QB Boozers/Marlins