PIT TOUCH and FLAG FOOTBALL in WINNIPEG MANITOBA - FOOTBALL!

51 Posts

Okay, So I got an interesting one for you all. The scenario;

Receiver A is running a 'go' route, and is leading the defender, by about a step. The ball is placed perfectly so that the receiver doesn't have to change speed or direction.
-The defender raises his arms without looking back, and the pass will obviously make contact with the defenders arms as there is a height advantage to the defender.
-The receiver then brings his arms around and knocks away the defenders arms.
-The defender places his hands up again and strikes (accidentally) the receivers head.
-This causes the receiver to stumble, and the two crash into each other.
-Ball falls incomplete.

Now the calls on this play were PI against both offence and defence, and since Offence PI causes a turnover, and it 'happened first' according to the refs, the ball was turned over.
I personally thought the defender should be called for the screen, then perhaps offsetting penalties for the contact. That's just me.

On a second note; can someone tell me what the rule on simultaneous catches are? I know they go the receivers way, but is there not a moment or two where the two players can struggle within reason to claim possession? I was told this was not so today, and have never heard that before.

51 Posts

I wasn't there, and I totally defer to the experienced refs in the league, but I would call this offensive pass interference. If the ball was placed perfectly, the receiver would keep on running without turning to manipulate the defender's arms. From an offensive standpoint, the ball wasn't placed perfectly, because the receiver had to impede the defender's attempt on the ball. If it's a go route, you keep on going.

That aside, if the receiver had just made a play on the ball without interfering, he may have drawn a target zone pass interference call - unless the defender turned at the right moment. But that's a hypothetical, because once the first interference takes place, it changes the outcome of the play. You could call both, but I'd call just the first one to remove any type of doubt.

If all the contact was accidental and not caused by rough play or lack of attempt to control your body, I wouldn't call it.

This sounds like a very tricky call, but a correct one - and also one that takes courage to call. The easy way out would have been to call offsetting penalties and replay the down, but to me, it's offensive PI. Must have come at a critical moment in the game because two of you posted about it on the board.

Also, the catch is complete once the rotation of the ball stops.

177 Posts

While i won't comment on the actual calls; ie did each commit pass interference? because not being there to see the action it is too difficult to do, heck it's difficult when you are there and see it!

However, 2 live ball fouls. If both fouls are accepted, replay the down at the previous line of scrimmage (LOS). Which foul occurred first has no bearing on this play.

Second note: Simultaneous catches go to the team that was considered to have possession prior to the simultaneous catch; in most cases the offence. However, in a situation such as an interception and the possession has changed to the defense and then an onside pass is made and is simultaneously caught i would give to the team that was in possession ie the defense in this case.
If two players are struggling to gain possession of a pass and no one has gained possession than that is simultaneous. If one player gains possession of the ball and then the other player tries to wrestle it out, this is not simultaneous. So yes, there could be a time interval where the players are trying to gain possession.

hopefully that clears the situation up a little. If not, ask away.

Cliff

254 Posts

It would be impossible to explain exactly what happened unless you where there to see it. Well, it wasn't a go, it was an out and up, and my didn't have didn't have to turn, all he did was turn his head to locate the ball, and the defender did not turn around whatsoever, and the ball WAS placed perfectly, I should know because I threw it. He wasn't completely clear of the defender but he had a couple of steps on him, not not mention the defender was probably half a foot taller than my receiver. It didn't happen at a crucial point in the game, but that's not point. It doesn't matter when in a game it happens, even if it's 100-0. And if what Cliff said is the offical rule (I don't know for sure) and that I'd doesn't matter which penalty took place first, then I think all the refs should know that, and even of you don't know the rules at the very least, just replay the down. And it wasn't even the head ref that made this Offensive PI call, he called the defensive one which I was competely fine with, obviously because it was my Recevier that was being interfered with, but also because it was the correct call. Which brings up the other question I had on my other post, are the side refs allowed to throw flags as well for penalties other than offsides? Because this play ended up happening right in front of him and he didn't throw a flag at all, I don't know if it's cause he's not allowed or if he just didn't see anything that was flag worthy.

36 Posts

I blame Obama.

51 Posts

Wait, so the defenders arms being up in the air without looking back for the ball should be ignored? The receiver would have no need to knock away the hands to make a play on the ball otherwise. I guess it depends on WHEN the defensive PI is technically committed, when the defender raises his hands without looking back, or the receiver catches the ball over the defender who raised his hands without looking back.

I've seen the flag come out before the receiver catches the ball, so I thought the initial raising of the hands, creating the screen without looking for the ball was the initial penalty. Because wouldn't the raising of the go-go gadget arms be considered removing the positional advantage the receiver had by being a step or two ahead?

As for my second question, thanks it is cleared up. We just had the situation where both defender and receiver caught the ball same time, as it was between the two, and both fought for it.

Matt Trump
Chupacabras

36 Posts

The taller ref (don't know his name, sorry ref) talked to us after the game. We questioned the call as well for future reference. He said the push off occurred before the screen.

254 Posts

I don't know how he saw a push off from the angle he was standing at, and also the fact the defender was blanketing the reciever, and regardless of what PI happened first, according to Cliff, it doesn't matter since even after the ref conference the head ref still said there was PI on both guys, which should of been a replay of downs, right?

36 Posts

I totally agree it ended up being the wrong result. I'm guessing refs were just unaware of that rule. I was just replying to Matt. He was saying our guys interference was ignored which it wasn't. They did call both penalties, but just didn't rule it correctly. Yeah, they got it wrong but at least they had a conference to discuss it, right? Yeah, Refs made a mistake. It happens. I'm sure They'll remember this rule going forward. Great to have this on the board so other refs can see it too hopefully.

177 Posts

Travers, Yes the result should have been replay the down. Good discussion.

51 Posts

Oh okay. I was unaware the initial call was a push off (i didn't see it and when I asked I wasn't told there was a push off) I get it now.

948 Posts

Two different descriptions of the initial route, a go route (streak) and an out and up (wheel) from players on the same team (who would have thunk). This pretty much sums it up where descriptive accounts should all be taken with a grain, or a pound of salt! A seasoned referee should be cycling through the various Defender/Offence match-ups, so a missed call is inevitable, and even a partial glance, which may not access all that took place is also likely. All views are slanted, but in the end we actually make a conscious effort to have all referees trained well in the PIT. I encourage all team captains make an effort to read the rules of the league, and attend our free referee clinic held by the two most qualified referees in the COUNTRY (Brad K, Cliff K). Come to the ref clinic to become accountable for your forum posts. I have been very fortunate playing with people like Cliffy and Neil M who take the time be versed in the scriptures of the PIT. I wish I was an encyclopedia, but I too need to brush up on the rules from time to time. I encourage discussions like this, as it only makes the PIT brethren stronger, but remember you catch more flies with honey than your do with vinegar. Traverse, well done with the discussion, but I don't believe I have seen you at the referee clinics...

Cool Summer AIC song

The PIT Crew